Bart:
You are way off base on this.
I have not served in combat but did serve in
the Marine Corps.
The military attracts a certain number of brutal
and ruthless people who enjoy their perceptions of their power.
Such people will commit torture on day one or
day 365, regardless of whatever pressures they are or are not under.
Out of 150,000 people, sure, you're going to get
some bad ones.
The real issue here is that the United States
has unleashed the dogs of war, and some of the beasts are quite ravenous.
The war should be stopped and all or our troops
should come home - the good and the bad.
When the bad get back, they should be locked-up,
just like we would do with any war criminal.
Bob
San Diego
But Bob, you said you were in the military.
Should you be locked up?
How do we tell the "good" from the "bad?"
Bart cop,
There is a report on CBS revealing that the U.S.
Army had not bothered to even train
the troops in the Geneva Convention!!!
When troops are 'convinced' that Iraq was involved
in 911, and that Osama BinForgotten
and Saddam are pals, then up pops the brain fart
instructing the trooper to "get some" for
all the people killed in New York. This is where,
in my opinion, the "command structure"
has completely failed! The officers and NCOs
are derelict in controlling their troops, therefore,
torture, rape (yes, men raping men) and murder
is common.
In 'Nam the Marines had orders to turn over all
prisoners to the Vietnamese troops.
This action allowed the U.S. to have 'deniability'
when asked, "Does the U.S. torture Vietnamese prisoners?"
I was assigned to the Fourth Marine Regiment (presently
surrounding Fallujah) and sat in on several torture
sessions of prisoners. Strange how there was
always an American "officer (no visible rank insignia or unit insignia)"
present!
I never thought that what I witnessed would bother
me, however, here it is 36 years later and I see the one particular
prisoner who would not talk. He was an older
man with hair turning white at the temples. He endured hours of gradually
increasing violence to his body but never said
a word! The torturer threatened to kill him with a bayonet when the
American "officer" intervened. When I saw the
prisoner the next morning the man had his fingers, hands, arms and legs
broken. He was in shock and being placed on a
helicopter.
Your statement that these kids are going to be
upgefucht after their tour is on the money.
I am waking up with that prisoner in the morning,
and I think about him during the day.
I will never forget him nor the others.
bikertrash
BT, thanks - that's the kind of straight-talking feedback I was hoping to get.
Subject: Combat had nothing to do with it
Bart,
This was not being done to the Iraqi prisoners
in the heat of battle. This is a top down problem and blame
should not stop at the one-star level. Rumsfeld
is the one who set up the circumstances for these hate crimes
and should share the cell with these young men
and no one should look in for a few days.
Behaviors like this went on in Viet Nam and when
Kerry brought it up he was attacked as though bringing
it up was worse than doing it. Just like
the stain on the dress was worse than murdering thousands.
jim
Jim, I'm not saying the suspects are guilty of entrapment, but I'll
guess most soldiers signed up
for the weekends thing, not a year plus of living in a hellhole, fearing
for their lives.
History tells us once you see the enemy as less than human, all bets
are off. Those suspects had jobs
like you and me a couple of years ago, then Bush went nuts and now
every day might be their last.
Bart,
I spent a year in Vietnam, and though I wouldn't
describe my time as serious combat, I got shot at and I shot back.
I'm currently a National Officer in Vietnam Veterans
Against the War and over the past twenty years I've talked
to dozens of other vets who served in conflicts
from World War I to the present.
The military brainwashes it's members during basic
training. How else do you convert a god-fearing young boy
or girl into a trained killer in a few months?
First the recruits are broken down - physically
and mentally. The haircut and the uniform begin their loss of individuality.
Their anchor to any prior life (and it's values)
is lost.
The physical stress and constant exhaustion compound
this breakdown.
After the recruits hit bottom they are built
back up in the military image.
Then the military goes one step further (and this
applies to the treatment of those Iraqi prisoners), they dehumanize
the enemy. It's easier to hate, or to kill (or
mistreat) someone who is less than human. A "Hun" can be illustrated as
a mad beast. A German citizen might have
a wife or a family.
In Vietnam the enemy were "gooks," "slopes," "zips,"
and even the somewhat more respectful "Charlie"
or "Victor Charlie" still didn't recognize
the enemy as an equal.
In Desert Storm the Iraqis were "camel jockeys,"
"rag heads," "sand monkeys" etc. and could be treated as the
sub-humans those names implied. I haven't had
a chance to talk to any of the current crop of veterans, but I
suspect similar things are happening today.
John Z
Hey Bart,
I think what these Army Reservists
did is of course, terrible, but I must ask the question: Why are the Army
Reserves
over there running a POW prison at all?
The Army Reserves are weekend warriors, not full-time soldiers. They
shouldn't
have been sent there at all, and from everything
I've seen- torture, murder, and mistreatment of Iraqis who should have
all
the rights and privileges of a prisoner of war-
These Army Reservists are apparently not trained well enough, not very
well
disciplined, and not given a decent chain of
command to refer to when they have questions about procedure. Simply
put,
the people who are over there representing
the U.S. Army Reserves were never meant to see major combat unless it came
to American Soil. They are not full-fledged soldiers,
and they have no business being overseas doing Bush's dirty work.
It's no wonder it's such a mess over there.
They sent over a bunch of part-time soldiers to die without proper equipment
or training. I agree that the "fog of war"
can mess with a soldier's head, and make them do horrible things, but we
must first
ask ourselves if these people had ANY business
being in the middle of such a SNAFU in the first place.
They should all be back here in America, making
stupid mistakes in college or at work. Not in Iraq.
That's why we have a full-time Army.
Wilder K. W