Trying to explain the obvious to you is much like
trying to tell Ann Coulter why she should put her bony knees together
and not show off so much of that indecent xxxx
xxxx of hers while she's holding forth on liberal induced moral "decadence".
So why don't you pull down the pathetically inadequate
skirt barely covering your indecent, little trog brain, twit, and deal
with
the hand you are dealt and not one which you
make up in your dim, robotic imagination? I have a feeling this is
how you play
poker when the big boys let you in the game.
Where can I find a translator for whatever it is that's coming out of
your mouth?
Now, I didn't care if you printed my original
letter or not, but since you did, and managed such a stereotypical, laughably
heavy handed and obtuse, right wing job of answering
a point utterly different than the one I made and ignoring the real charge,
then I think you owe me the chance to respond
to this willfully, uncomprehending garbage. Since one does not know whether
you see this mail or not, let me know by simply
hitting the reply button whether you see it and are incapable of dealing
with the
fact I make a dipshit of you herein, or if you
simply don't see it at all. Also you asked a question in it -- an amazingly
obtuse,
naive and laughable question -- but a queston
of sorts nonetheless. Don't ask em if you don't want to see the answer
you
pathetic, logic chopping fraud. Oh, and I love
the part about you not having a stake in this argument. Do you thing that
the
overwhelming segment of world opinion, who favor
the Palestinian position do, you ignorant fool. (Obviously the many Jews
who see things that way -- including the recent
speaker of the Knesset whose remarks I include -- do, but not in the way
you would like to have it.) Wouldn't it
be smarter to just stay out of matters you admittedly don't know anything
about in the first place?
Every time I mention this mess, I remind people that I don't know anything
about it,
other than knowing both sides would rather die than surrender their
precious, sacred sand
Pathetic -- you are ineducable and dishonest.
So, it all comes down to those forest fires in the brain, eh? Any one capable
of seeing the Palestinian side in this conflict
and of seeing through the transparent rationalizations for Israeli killings
of
Palestinians has got to be insane and a hater
of Jews. Well, ain't it amazing how many screwballs there are in the world
-- since the overwhelming number of the world's
nations and peoples do take that side. In fact, many Jews, including
significant segments inside Israel itself, are
apalled by and opposed to the excesses of the IDF -- are they Jew haters
too?
To suggest this vile nonsense is to use the execrable
tactics that right wingers in the US use who call critics of right wing
policy, America haters. I guess, depending on
where huge numbers of people all over the globe who understand the
Palestinian cause find themselves, it's a either
a tsunami, a hurricane, a blizzard, a typhoon or a sandstorm...then there's
the strange case of the Okie with a tornado blowing
unimpeded through the great, hollow wasteland between his ears.
You forgot to call me "obtuse" in that paragraph.
Are you changing tactics on me?
Yeah, the hate and insanity is all on one side
and how do we know this? Bartcop, a self admitted ignoramus on the
Palestinian/Israeli issue, and one with a mind
too bequiled by logic twisting winds to understand that the "targeting"
rationale he uses is an argument which can be
falsely applied and willfully abused. He, will not listen carefully to
how
this can be, however, and still, like some slack
jawed jejune, just wants to jump in there with both feet and set us all
straight on the most recondite and difficult
moral issues governing this, one of the most tragic and intractable conflicts
of our time. He doesn't understand or acknowledge
any subleties, variations, exceptions or nuances, but he's got it down
that if you are after a badass and you are an
Israeli it's just ok to whack as many passersby in the process as you can
and the bloodier the merrier no matter how many
of those deaths are unnecessary and avoidable...or how many times
this same "mistake" is made. What would
you call someone like that? A presumptuous jackass, careless sociopath,
pompous little cockalorum... or just a common
fool?
How about "too busy to read long-ass diatribes by someone who I can't
understand?
How is it that the usually sensible and intelligent
Mr. Bartcop has fallen into this nonsense? He sees himself as the
ultimate detached and objective arbiter of something
he knows little about and upon which he shows no desire to
enlighten himself. Yet he calls those who are
better informed on the subject than he is Palestinian wackos, Jew haters
and even insane because they do not share his
ignorant simplicity. That sounds like the ultimate in judicious arbitrage
does it not? Maybe -- Bill Reilly certainly
wouldn't see anything wrong in it.
On this subject, knowing nothing is an advantage.
You're 100,000 percent certain that your point of view is flawless.
I think your know-everything attitude is what keeps the thousands-years-old
fight going.
Well, there's plenty of hate and outrage to go
around on this issue and it sticks to both sides and when that's all said
and done
and cancels itself out, we're still left with
the issue, so why don't you stick to that and quit sharing your simplistic
" moral clarity"
thing with us. One ignorant yet unabashed GeeDumbass
wanting to tell everyone how it should be is more than enough.
It's amazing how, no matter who you are, when
you take a right wing position, you start arguing like a right wing fraud.
I'm going to give up.
I'd need an arm transplant to answer every nutty point he brings up,
and clearly, nothing will satisfy him,
but you can read the rest if you've got nothing better to do.
I'll just stipulate to "obtuseness."
New rule:
From now on, there's a 30,000 word limit on wacky mail about the Middle
East
Your whole position is based on a gullible and
simplistic take on this "targeting" thing and you shake your empty head
in
shrill incredulity that we just don't get it.
In mindlessly and redundantly intoning this pathetica, you sound like the
cretinous
participant in a spelling bee who keenly and
pathetically grasps at the nomenclature of the lone, precious one syllable
word
he has managed with great sweat to lodge deep
in his two cell memory bank and which he repeats robotically and with
pathetically humorous effect to each of the schoolmasters
queries no matter which word the master may be asking him to spell.
That you actually believe that we are unable
to "get" this pea brained point of yours is unbelievable. We get it alright
-- much
better than you do -- and reject it for the pedestrian
asinity of intellectual primitivism, gullibility and rationalization that
it is so,
please, quit returning to it like some senile
parrot who has forgotten everything else he's ever learned.
Now, let me go over step-by-step and very carefully why the "targeting" excuse is not legitimate in many of these cases.
The concept of collateral damage, precisely because
it is one which seeks to justify the deaths of innocents, is a principle
which,
once accepted, must be applied more fastidiously
and seriously than any other, with the utmost caution in causing no more
damage
than is absolutely necessary. To use it carelessly
or wantonly is to make a mockery of it, and to turn it into it's opposite
-- as is so
often the case with high-minded concepts in the
wrong hands -- in this case, yet another cynical excuse for murder and
terror.
And, it is precisely this ploy which the IDF uses
relentlessly. The example I sent -- the point of which you "missed" with
studied
obtuseness -- is a perfect example. In this case
they use the method which will cause the most damage to any innocent parties
nearby, not the least. Of course, they
are "targeting" someone -- did you really think I had missed that point,
you pathetic ______?
It is the execution of the principle I am focusing
on here, not the principle itself. No one is too stupid to grasp
that, yet you manage
it with amazing aplomb.
Now, in a long conflict, the occasional excess
might be expected, though even these cases might often be cause for charges
of criminal recklessness. If, however, it happens
repeatedly, relentlessly over long periods of time, then only a fool or
liar
would fail to see that these predictable and
endless excesses are intentional -- that indeed and in short it has become
policy.
And, that the military force has itself become
an instrument of terror far more effective than anything the Palestinians
can match.
This happens so often in history in one variation
or another that it is surprising that it would even have to be explained.
Every
police state and oppressive power has a force
which, while claiming to target only criminals and enemies of the state,
is merely
an instrument of terror. This is an excuse so
transparent and shopworn that it is a tired joke.
Beyond this, of course, there is the all important
consideration of the legitimacy of the cause in the first place. If it
is not just,
then none of the violence that seeks to further
that cause is acceptable. This is largely an issue for another debate,
but we are
assured here by "the irrepressible Bartcop" --
who it has become embarrassingly obvious, has found a case here where he
should be practicing a little of that self repression
-- that the Israeli actions are like those of the suddenly infallible and
morally
impeccable American presidents which he laughably
conjures up for us. That these moral giants presided over, among other
things, the greatest genocide in world history
-- that of the American Indian -- and such historical low points as the
Viet Nam
war, the Panamanian invasion and the current
criminal action in Iraq is suddenly forgotten. If somewhere in time and
space a
US president necessarily killed innocents while
attacking a legitimate target, then, one is to moronically suppose, that
all
instances involving such collateral damage committed
anywhere by anybody, anytime, no matter how carelessly or how
cynically or incorrectly, must be forever sanctified
! In regard to this idiocy, I commend your storm addled brain to the more
able ministrations of pre-school pedagogues and
those adroit at special education and the handling of the intellectually
or morally impaired.
Another point which has inevitably escaped
your steel trap mind is the fact that the acts of the IDF are the
policy of the Israeli
government, and not the act of desperate radical
groups or lone individuals who, if one were to open their tormented biographies,
would be found therein to be driven to madness
and revenge at having lost children, entire families, sanity and hope in
the unbearable
and unending hell of the refugee camps or the
stifling prison that is the soul twisting, fifty year milieu of Zion's
victims.
Now, I could easily bury you in even more of your
own horseshit, but this, already, is too much for you to rationalize
away
and deceive yourself over for one day, and just
enough to provide me with a little, light intellectual exercise on a late
summer
evening. If youl continue to grind this obscene,
dull and blood drenched axe on the pages of your website, with the resultant
indecent exposure that it gives to your reasoning
powers and reputation for integrity, you can only lose much of the credibility
and support that you would otherwise have had.
It's unfortunate that you would mix this strange, patented reactionary
thinking
with the otherwise commendable material found
there, but this country needs another one sided apologist for Zionist murder
like it needs another deluded grotesque touting
the neo-conservative con or the unholy excecrations of Xtian fundementedalism.
Especially one who, rather than defend his own
one sidedness, clumsily tries to project that attitude on to his critics.
Vive Robertson,
Limbaugh, Sharon and Bartcop on this one, buddy.
Your misfortune is that you, unlike the other mentioned though really
unmentionable worthies, have/had as auditors
an educated and independent minded constituency...and I find it incredibly
interesting psychologically that in joining those
scum on this issue, you end by using the same heavy handed debating
methods
that they would while defending your mutual position.
. While you imagine you're dealing with
a crowd of irrational people so clouded by partisanship that they can't
see the simple truth,
what we really have here is the classic case
of a man with a too simple "truth" which, precisely by dint of that simplicity,
seems to
him beyond question. It's the moral clarity of
GeeDumbass and the fundamentalist assholes on both sides of the water.
Look at
world opinion -- including that of a recent speaker
of the knesset which I include below ( another Jew hater, Rush? ) -- on
this
and look, especially, at the truly vile company
you're keeping on these polluted grounds.
And, puhdamnleeze, don't turn the dim witted,
little parrot loose on us again with the targeting thing. As an old time
waterfowler
used to more challenging game, I cannot in good
conscience shoot the pathetic, louse infested, wing-clipped, slow flying,
little
motherfucker down again.
Avraham Burg
Monday September 15, 2003
The Guardian
· Avraham Burg was speaker of Israel's
Knesset in 1999-2003 and is a former chairman of the Jewish Agency for
Israel.
Reprinted with permission of The Forward, which
translated and adapted this essay from an article that originally appeared
in Yediot Aharonot
The Zionist revolution has always rested on two
pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative
any longer.
The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding
of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such,
the end of the
Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep.
There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There
may yet be a
Jewish state here, but it will be a different
sort, strange and ugly.
There is time to change course, but not much.
What is needed is a new vision of a just society and the political will
to implement it.
Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar
of their identity must pay heed and speak out.
The opposition does not exist, and the coalition,
with Ariel Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain silent. In a
nation of
chatterboxes, everyone has suddenly fallen dumb,
because there's nothing left to say. We live in a thunderously failed reality.
Yes, we have revived the Hebrew language, created
a marvellous theatre and a strong national currency. Our Jewish minds
are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the Nasdaq.
But is this why we created a state? The Jewish people did not survive
for two millennia in order to pioneer new weaponry,
computer security programs or anti-missile missiles. We were supposed
to be a light unto the nations. In this we have
failed.
It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for
Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral
clique of corrupt
lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens
and to their enemies. A state lacking justice cannot survive. More and
more Israelis
are coming to understand this as they ask their
children where they expect to live in 25 years. Children who are honest
admit, to their
parents' shock, that they do not know. The countdown
to the end of Israeli society has begun.
It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West
Bank settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical landscape is charming.
You can
gaze through the geraniums and bougainvilleas
and not see the occupation. Travelling on the fast highway that skirts
barely a half-mile
west of the Palestinian roadblocks, it's hard
to comprehend the humiliating experience of the despised Arab who must
creep for hours
along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to
him. One road for the occupier, one road for the occupied.
This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their
heads and swallow their shame and anger for ever, it won't work. A structure
built on
human callousness will inevitably collapse in
on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing
like a cheap
Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen continue
dancing on the top floor while the pillars below are collapsing.
We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering
of the women at the roadblocks. No wonder we don't hear the cries of the
abused
woman living next door or the single mother struggling
to support her children in dignity. We don't even bother to count the women
murdered by their husbands.
Israel, having ceased to care about the children
of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred
and
blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli
escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation,
because their
own lives are torture. They spill their own blood
in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children
and
parents at home who are hungry and humiliated.
We could kill a thousand ringleaders a day and nothing will be solved,
because
the leaders come up from below - from the wells
of hatred and anger, from the "infrastructures" of injustice and moral
corruption.
If all this were inevitable, divinely ordained and immutable, I would be silent. But things could be different, and so crying out is a moral imperative.
Here is what the prime minister should say to
the people: the time for illusions is over. The time for decisions has
arrived. We love the entire
land of our forefathers and in some other time
we would have wanted to live here alone. But that will not happen. The
Arabs, too, have dreams and needs.
Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there
is no longer a clear Jewish majority. And so, fellow citizens, it is not
possible to keep
the whole thing without paying a price. We cannot
keep a Palestinian majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time
think ourselves
the only democracy in the Middle East. There
cannot be democracy without equal rights for all who live here, Arab as
well as Jew.
We cannot keep the territories and preserve a
Jewish majority in the world's only Jewish state - not by means that are
humane and moral and Jewish.
Do you want the greater land of Israel? No problem.
Abandon democracy. Let's institute an efficient system of racial separation
here,
with prison camps and detention villages.
Do you want a Jewish majority? No problem. Either
put the Arabs on railway cars, buses, camels and donkeys and expel them
en masse - or separate ourselves from them absolutely,
without tricks and gimmicks. There is no middle path. We must remove
all the settlements - all of them - and draw
an internationally recognised border between the Jewish national home and
the Palestinian
national home. The Jewish law of return will
apply only within our national home, and their right of return will apply
only within the
borders of the Palestinian state. Do you want
democracy? No problem. Either abandon the greater land of Israel, to the
last
settlement and outpost, or give full citizenship
and voting rights to everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course,
will be that
those who did not want a Palestinian state alongside
us will have one in our midst, via the ballot box.
The prime minister should present the choices
forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy. Settlements, or hope for both
peoples.
False visions of barbed wire and suicide bombers,
or a recognised international border between two states and a shared capital
in Jerusalem.
Why, then, is the opposition so quiet? Perhaps
because some would like to join the government at any price, even the price
of participating
in the sickness. But while they dither, the forces
of good lose hope. Anyone who declines to present a clear-cut position
- black or white -
is collaborating in the decline. It is not a
matter of Labour versus Likud or right versus left, but of right versus
wrong, acceptable versus
unacceptable. The law-abiding versus the lawbreakers.
What's needed is not a political replacement for the Sharon government
but a
vision of hope, an alternative to the destruction
of Zionism and its values by the deaf, dumb and callous.
Israel's friends abroad - Jewish and non-Jewish
alike, presidents and prime ministers, rabbis and lay people - should choose
as well.
They must reach out and help Israel to navigate
the road map toward our national destiny as a light unto the nations and
a society
of peace, justice and equality.