Subject: You are quite wrong on this prayer thing

First, don't get me wrong, I don't even consider myself a Christian.  Secondly, my degree is in Physics.
The studies being referred to are in relation to people usually in the cardiac wards in hospitals.
One wing will get prayed upon (not 'preyed' upon) and the other wing does not.  The studies are double blind.
They administrators of the test look back on the nurses' and doctors' reports between the two wings and the
results (quite consistently) are that the wing that were secretly prayed on requested fewer drugs, had fewer
complications, had better emotional attitude, and usually released earlier.  There is a long history of statitistics
w/out the praying being done to show what the usual numbers are.  These studies are actually pretty well
documented and mostly accepted.

So, I would like to ask you a question:
    1.  What are the rules for successful praying?
        (space here reserved for your patent pending "ha ha, horseshit" so feel free)

ha ha

I haven't given that question much thought, but the rules for successful praying would involve numbers.
You show me a glass with 5 ounces of water in it and pray and if there's 6 ounces of water in it when
you're done I'll apologize for not believing and give myself completely over to God.

I don't see how you can do a scientific test with groups of people who all have individual health problems.
It's too easy to put the "likely to survive" people in Dorm One and the "unlikelies" in Dorm Two, and then
show some eskimos in Siberia a picture of Aunt Sally and then watch her dorm turn up a winner.

Besides, why would the effects of the prayer have to be hidden?
Does sunlight destroy the effects of prayer?
In the flawed study that started this thread, women became pregnant more often with prayers.
If prayer can make the sperm enter the ovum more often (when we can't see it) why can't prayer
move a spoon from one end of a table to another?

For that matter, they say "Prayer can move mountains."
Move the Rocky Mountains and I'll become the most devout religious person in the world.
But the mountains aren't going anywhere, the water isn't changing, the women aren't getting
pregnant more often and meanwhile, the collection plate is coming so get your wallet out.
 

But I am quite serious.  There is only data.  The data only refers to wellness of people in hospitals.
The data does not refer to the cubs winning a world series.  It has nothing to do w/sports, so you cannot
apply the data to anything else until the rules that can predict the data are better understood.  Unless you
know the rules of praying.  (and don't give me any bullshit about Catholics knowing the rules, or any other
religion, for that matter--because they don't.)  In experimental physics, first comes hypothesis, then
experimentation, then data, then conclusions.  Sometimes the data is straightforward and one can reason
some rules from it.  Other times, in more complex experiments, you can only work within the boundaries
of your experiment.  So, for your example of sports, if a group of people prayed that their team would
have fewer injuries, or perhaps a better emotional well-being--maybe shown in the team working well,
or getting along well, then the data might apply.  Other than that, the data is silent, and any other
application of it is invalid.

(more space for your comments)

You can't say  "The data only refers to wellness of people in hospitals."
The idea of "wellness" sounds extremely difficult to quantify.
If prayer works, why can't it heal broken bones?
If prayer can open up an artery and make blood circulate more easily, then prayer
could probably blow up a balloon. By Koresh, if I put a balloon on a table and you pray
and the balloon blows itself up - I'll work for God for free the rest of my life.

But   you   can't.
 

Secondly, yes, there are numerous examples of the effect of placebos.  The human mind has a great capacity for healing the body, no question about it.  These two effects are, I believe quite similar.  Although I believe there is a Big Something out there, just because someone "prays" doesn't necessarily means the Big Something just got involved.  Perhaps the act of praying is an easier way for humans to focus their minds correctly, or 'kick-in' some other aspect of the brain that we know very little about--and that aspect is the one that could affect other people's (as well as our own) health.  Again, what are the rules of prayer?  The data doesn't say, and we don't know.  I think there should be more (tightly controlled) studies of this phenomena.  Many other scientists and physicists would also like to see more studies.  I don't think there will be a huge bandwagon of studies though, for a simple reason....  Funding.
 

Since you asked a second time, I'll tell you the rules of prayer: They are the same as
the rules of BartCop flying into the past and saving Lincoln from being shot - na ga da.

Funding isn't going to blow up a lifeless balloon sitting on a table.
The more I think about it, I love that analogy:   Show me the balloon.
I don't want to hear that Bobby's leg hurts less when we pray.
I don't want to hear that Barbara got pregnant after we prayed.
I don't want to hear that one group felt "more wellness" than another.

If prayer works, let's see it blow up a balloon.
 

Experiments nowadays are expensive, so scientists need to get funded.  To some extent, it has always been this way-- except now, it's not a rich benefactor who just wants to advance science for science sake, w/a little recognition.  Now, you go before the government, or a large corporation and ask them for the funding.  The corporation will only do that if they can make a profit.  (don't seem to be much profit in prayer, except churches, who really don't care if you are praying right anyway--the faith is more important than the science).

No profit in prayer?
If it worked, I can promise you a billion dollars.
Our military alone would pay you a billion dollars if you could make prayer work.
If prayer worked, there'd be no hierachy of needs because every need of every person
could easily be met with a short prayer. That's not going to happen.
(I can't believe this debate.)
 

Both the corporation and the government will get a panel of experts to decide if it is scientifically sound (in the least) and whether it is worth funding.  The  panel of experts also receive funding in their own right, and don't want to go too far out
of the mainstream accepted theories for their recommendations.  (else they might lose their funding--or that's their fear).
So the experts do not recommend funding anything that goes outside of the canon of accepted theory.

In closing, there are many areas right now where obscure scientists are experimenting in areas that the scientist-priests do not condone.  Free-energy devices, faster than light transportation, understanding the science of the mind (as opposed to the brain) and consciousness, remote viewing, just to name a few.  We have some theories, and some data, many of which are very intriguing and ignite the imagination.  Most of these are not ready for prime-time just yet, but some say they will be ready sooner than you think.  I know you have an IQ in the 60's somewhere (though I personally think it's a bit higher, perhaps 72), but in the next 20 years, we may finally have the irrefutable proof that might be able to get the scientist-priests to accept some of this.  (yes, science is a religion right now.)  Just a little more than a hundred years ago, there was a famous quote:
"If man were supposed to fly, God would have given him wings".  Most scientists of that day didn't believe man would
or could ever fly--much less go to the moon.  That was all fiction--science fiction.  Just like mind power, or faster than light transportation.

Thanks for letting me vent a little.

Birdman, the heretic.

P.S.  For some of your pansy readers that you have lost out there,
         I can disagree with you and still read your column every day.
         Life is too short, people!
 

Birdman, thanks for that - hope you're still around after reading this :)

To me, science is water freezing at 32 degrees.
If you can get water to freeze at 40 degrees, I can probably make you rich.
If you can get stationary water to not freeze at 25 degrees, I can certainly make you rich.
But no amount of prayer can make water break the scientific rules.

You SEEM to be saying water freezes when the prayers ask it to.
That can not and will not ever happen.