Hey Bart!

Good show as usual.  Tell Tally-Ho-Ho-Ho* that her music choice were spot on,
and can she (or Tommy Mack) tell me where I can get that Miles Davis Xmas tune?
Please don’t say Sony BMG… oh, and maybe you could have gotten some of the tunes from
the South Park Christmas special, too – Mr. Garrison singing Merry Cheneying Christmas,
Mr. Mackey singing Carol of the Bells, etc.  Or some of the other gag Christmas songs.

The monkey dismantling was okay, but not my fave.  You’ve done this before, and it’s so old.
Still, I suppose that some people don’t get it yet (even some BCR listeners!), so I can understand
why you might want to do it.  Plus, exposing Putsch’s lies is like shooting fish in a barrel.
I can understand how you might like to start off with an easy bit to work your way in to the show…

Calling a ditto monkey on his lies has been a staple since we started.
Can I help it if Bush tells the same lies over and over? :)
 

Getting the Repugnicants out of the Democratic party – I agree with you completely.  It does seem to be
hard to fight big money and city hall, though.  We don’t really need Kerry’s rhetoric – but we do need
Kerry’s financial backing.  And I do seem to remember something about the wisdom of fighting city hall…
and I’m one of those trumpet players you ripped on at the end of the bit, too!

The trumpet reference escapes me - wish I had time to go back and play that again.
 

Nice war on Christmas rant!  Cutting to the chase, and telling the truth about this BS, is the right way
to go on this issue.  Plus, the smack down for the family ditto monkey is worth more than gold.
I wish I would have heard this before dealing with my family over the holidays.

ha ha
Maybe it's best this way.
 

A very nice rant from Tally about the Christians usurping all those pagan occult rituals and incorporating
them into their religious insanity.  Also, it’s nice to point out that “Happy Holidays” is more inclusive,
and sends good vibes to everyone, not just the theofascists.

Tally rocks.
 

Also: I disagree with you on torture and its’ usefulness:

I do not think that any intelligence gathered through the use of torture can be trusted, because I have never
heard of any case where torture was used to gain useful information.  Can you provide me with any examples?

First, the disclaimer: I'm against torture in all but the wildest, most extreme situations.

But to answer you, how about the example cited in the show?
If a pedophile with a history of murder grabs your son, and the pedo's brother refuses to say where he is,
would you stay on the higher moral ground and accept your son's rape and murder gracefully?
 

I think that torture does bad things to the psyche, and the reputation, of the people who do the torturing.
Can you give me any examples of torture makes anyone involved with it feel better about themselves?
Any examples where you get a better rep when it’s known that you torture others?

If your primary goal is to feel better and enjoy a good reputation, drastic measures are out of thew question.
But to save your boy's life, one might take drastic measures.
 

In your example, when you threaten others, they gave you accurate information.  How can you be sure of that?
I’m also wondering how you can use a TV show to prove your point (even if it is the Denny Crain Show.)

Is it your position that no pedophiles with a history of murder exist?
I would never take drastic measures because Denny Crain said so.
I would only take drastic measures to save a loved one from a horrible death
 

You stretch things in your examples in a similar manner to those you criticize.

You are mistaken and I forgive you for that.
Sometimes, in a debate, if my opponent is hedging every position,
I'll put words in his mouth to force him to take a position.

Those I criticize are not interested in an honest debate.
Those I criticize win arguments by lying, ignoring facts and shouting down their opponent.
 

Not all people are saying you are a bloodthirsty Repugnicant who wants to torture everyone at the drop of the hat,
or we’re worried about giving Osama a bloody lip.

Well, certainly everyone isn't saying that, but...

When one says, "Torture is always wrong - period!" is slapping Osama torture?
If you put Osama in a jail cell that's 60 degrees - is that torture?
If you put Osama in an un-airconditioned cell in August in Las Vegas - is that torture?

Remember, this debate was supposed to be about that - where to draw the line.
But (I can only guess) the "Never!" people would answer "Yes" to the bullet points above.

Instead of having a discussion about "How far is too far?" I was cursed,
screamed at and called "Bush's twin" for daring to ask a simple question.
 

But some of us are saying that torture never works and you seem to be misrepresenting
that attitude as we’re a bunch of pussies who would rather lose on principle than win dirty.

This is very risky territory - but - would you sacrifice your kidnapped son for a principle?
I clearly would not, and you seem to be disagreeing with me.
If I'm wrong, calmly straighten me out.
 

I am saying to you right now that I do not believe that torture will ever provide useful information that you can trust,
and I am asking you right now to give me one example where it did – not where it might, but where it has.

Besides John McCain and Admiral Stockdale, I don't know anyone who has been tortured.
If I was a homicide detective or a combat veteran, I could give you first-hand info on this.
(Is putting a murder suspect "under the hot lights" torture?)

McCain wrote a book, I assume Stockdale did, too. Did they give up "useful" information to Charlie?
It's my guess they did, that's why the Pentagon tells grunt soldier to give it up early, because
sooner or later they're going to break, so why endure the torture just to delay the inevitable?
 

I think that anyone who is put in the scenario you propose to use torture in would either be
(i) a hard-core fanatic to the cause who will mislead his torturers to his dying breath;
(ii) a moderate, who is somewhat of a dupe, who would probably tell you what you wanted to know
     without you having to resort to torture (but might try and deceive you if you started pulling out his fingernails);
or (iii) and innocent, who is almost entirely a dupe, who will tell you whatever they can once they find out
    they were duped – and most certainly would not be positively influenced by being tortured.
 

That’s about all I got for you on this show.  I don’t care what you do in terms of how often you put out a
page or a radio show – as long as you don’t stop doing either of them altogether.  They’re both very good
in their own way and I would miss either if you decided to drop them.  Just keep on swinging that hammer…

Regards,
Tom the Pontiac Pillar
 

Thanks for the tangle.
I hope our exchange hasn't turned you into a former piller :)

Subject: still...

hey BC..
of course the author of the $@&% your "Calm, intelligent discussion" e-mail could do with a little less caffeine.

Still...
When he says:

> Let's torture Bart & make him confess to being involved in 911!  Then when we have your "confession",
> we'll say "see torture works, we now have THE 911 Mastermind, Bartcop".
> See how "well" torture works!

don't you think he kinda has a point...?
 JP
 

No, he doesn't even come close.
How in the world would that come within light-years of proving any point?

Did I say we should torture the innocent to make them confess to fake crimes?
Torture can't create what isn't there - why would anybody think it could?

If a Bank Manager knows the combination to the safe, torture works.
Can we all agree that torture works in that instance?

But torture would not work on me because *I* don't know the combination..

How is it possible that rational people fail to see that?
 

...and no, I don't support torturing bank managers to rob banks.

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